A question just popped in my mind.

[BonitoDeMadrid]

I'll be better off explaining to you how the mental process worked:

I read in Slim's thread from Milagre, about controlling your kids and watching what they do in the internet. I recalled that kids now-a-days are messing up their life every day, and questioned myself- although "rebelling" is, to some account, good and possibly desireable, why do people (my age, even) always go against the current, into places they normally wouldn't wanna go? Why must people always try the new way, most likely the dangerous way, when they have the sure way right in their face? (and I'm talking about-nearly- ALL teenagers, regardless of ethnic group and whatnot).
I tried to answer that question and the answer I came up with was because our parents- the parents of this generations, children of the "Baby Boom" if you may- were raised in a way that was not adequate, yet fit them, and wanted to raise their children this way, and not the other way around- with stricter discipline. So, in essence, the different behaviours of today's youth is, somewhat, the responsibility of the earlier generations, who didn't keep the old ways.
However, if a parent decided to raise their kid in the old, stricter way, the way of punishment, he probably could not, because the kid has so much power over him- too much power over him. Recently I heard a story of a 13 year old, with a mother that smokes, who also took up smoking, and when she told him to stop, he replied simply "I'll stop if you'll stop". And she couldn't respond to that, and just walked away. That, IMO, is not correct behaviour.
But today, unless we live in god-forbidden places (sorry people who live there, didn't mean to offend anyone), you can't apply the discipline for that kind of attitude, you cannot re-educate your child to live life correctly. You may try it, but no other parent would do it.
So I ask you, I ask myself, I ask everybody: How can we solve that problem? Because if we solve the disappearance of discipline in our childs, we also make them better people.

And then a counter-question popped up in my mind: Are we allowed to change the youth's life style so dramatically, change their lifes, probably without their agreements?
True, you might be the parent, the dominant. But the child, ever since birth, has his needs; for him to be denied those needs in favor of a better future, as the youth today thinks only-ONLY-about the present, can be hurtful. Can you let your child go through that, even in order to protect them from the world? Who keeps watch that they wouldn't become the opposite of what you wanted them to be?

(I hope this doesn't belong in Milagre. The forum says "Religion and Moral Philosophy" and this somewhat qualifies as Moral Philosophy)
(You, not We, in the sections referring to parenting, as I am not a parent myself)

[Slim]

Not being a parent, I'm hardly an expert on the matter. But I want to say my thoughts as I was reading your post.

It seems to me, the only way one learns to be a parent is by copying his/her parents. If they failed as parents, so will the children, because they do not know any better. Children with good parents will be successful at parenting themselves. (note: I'm only talking in absolutes because it's easier. The message: break the cycle! ) Failure in families cause a failure in society.

Your story of the 13-year-old smoker gives a couple great lessons: 1-The power of example. Kids learn from adults. People in general have no idea how much impact his/her example has on others. 2-I think the 13-year old knew he could get away with it. raising a kid does not begin at 13, or when they start getting into bigger trouble. Good parenting begins at at the beginning.

It would have been a much better story if she had a response like "Okay, I will stop." or even "You know we have already discussed this, and you can smoke when you are 19." (or something along those lines.)

But yeah, it seems the hardest part is when all else fails, and discipline must occur, what is the best way? I don't know. Beating kids isn't cool. Grounding kids and keeping them at home isn't fun for you. And punishment may cause rebellion.
I just thought of a scripture that gives good advice. It says to reprove with sharpness when moved upon by the Holy Ghost, and afterwards show an increase in love.

I recently finished "The Secret Garden" and I liked what one of the things it said. Something along the lines of "The worst things you can do for a child is everything he wants, or nothing he wants."

[Dr. Mobius]

There's no single surefire answer that'll work every time for every parent with every child. There's too many variables. Even identical twins can and do respond differently to the same treatment. And a single answer won't necessarily work with a given child for everything and will most likely decrease in effectiveness over time for the things it does work for.

There's some general guidelines you can and probably should follow. But even with that, it's still a lot of trial and error and a little intuition and luck on the part of the parent to figure out what works best with each child in each instance.

Then, if you can manage that, you get to the fun part where you have to explain to your children in terms they'll understand and accept why exactly it is that they're getting treated differently and, from their point of view, their siblings are getting treated better.

Regardless of what you do, they'll probably hate you for the majority of their adolescent lives.


Congrats on the non-(overtly) religious thread.
Good luck on it not degenerating into a theists vs. atheists flamewar anyway.

[London]

I believe that a balanace must be struck between "doing what's best" and "getting too involved....I am no parent (in fact, I'm 16) but I see my friends at school and think "If only their parents knew that they (er, we) acted like this at school"

I believe that parents should think about what they believe and pass them on to their children. There are SO many parents who don't seem to care, or maybe just assume they've rubbed off on their children enough that they are good to go for life's journey.

About rebelliousness...I think that it is incurable and will exist till the end of time. I do not believe it is a -good- thing, because many never come to their senses and realize that they were wrong.

I got out all I could think of...need to organize my thoughts...

[Boothby]

Here's a question worth answering: How do you impose rules (restrictions, controls, whatever) on a child who refuses to comply?

Me: Go to bed, it's 1:00 am!

Him: No. F*&^ you.


Me: Go to bed in your own bed, and no longer sleeping on the downstairs couch.

Him: No. F*&^ you.


Me: If you don't then I won't give you any allowance for the week.

Him: Fine. F*&^ you.


Me: Do your homework.

Him: No. F*&^ you.


Me: If you don't then I won't give you any allowance for the week.

Him: Fine. F*&^ you.


I can now understand that children can be controlled only when they accept the control coming from others (I seem to have read that somewhere...). There is an "unwritten social contract" between parents and children. The "good" children adhere to it, and succeed. My son denies it, and fights it, and (I fear) will get the cr@p kicked out of him one day when he says, "F*&^ you" to the wrong person.

I'll put $20 into the Paypal account of whoever here can give me practical information that works to bring my son back "on line." Or would that be "in line"? (The Tex Antoine response, "Just lie back and enjoy it" is unacceptable; besides, I already paid a family therapist $20 to tell me just that).

[Qing_Jao]

I'm a fairly new parent. I have a two year old and a five year old, so I don't know about adolescents, but I'm finding with my kids, it's about relationship. If I'm willing to show that they're important in some way, sometimes in strange ways, then they're more apt to listen to me later. Don't know if that'll stay the same, when they get older, but I've heard folks say it does. Also, I'm trying to get my kids to think about things, even at this young age. If I can teach them to think, I don't have to corral them as much when they get older. I hope anyway.

SARA

[Dr. Mobius]

Steve, that's a two-way street. Next time he comes to you wanting money or a ride to the mall or whatever (how old is he?), snap back with "No, f*** you." If he won't do what you want, there's no reason for you to do what he wants.

[Boothby]

Actually, he needed help moving his guitar amps around, and asked my wife to pop them in the van and drive...she said, "Now, if you had been willing to help the family when we needed you, I would be willing to help you now. So...no."

[London]

Send him to freaking boot camp.