The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

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Postby starlooker » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:33 pm

Though I agree with you, star, I find it frustrating when these things are changed with no thought to the poetry. The change to O Canada wouldn't be terrible, but it does disrupt the flow of the song.

There is a line in one of the hymns we sing at church "God in man made manifest" that the music director changed to "God in flesh made manifest". It's terrible. The man/manifest is a beautiful play on words, to change it to flesh is brutal.
Understood and granted. That's what I meant, I guess, by "an easy change." If it's just terribly awkward, leave it be. And I'm really not familiar enough with "O Canada" to know the degree to which it would affect the poetry. It doesn't seem like much on paper. I could be wrong. (Although, personally, I think that inclusivity matters more with regards to a national anthem than it would in most other songs. So, I tilt preference there to inclusiveness over poetry. Unless it's just horrible sounding.)

"God in man made manifest" makes perfect sense without changing it. The song is referring to Jesus who, by all accounts, was a man. That isn't referring to a collective "you," it's referring to a particular person, so the change -- besides being bad poetry -- doesn't really make much sense.

Also, in "Hark the Herald Angels Sing," I really do much prefer the sound of "Born to raise each child of earth" to "Born to raise the sons of earth." Not just for reasons of inclusivity, but because I just like the image and feel of it better.
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Postby neo-dragon » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:51 pm

Incidentally, when I first heard that there was controversy over the lyrics I assumed it would be about the reference to God. I guess that'll be the next thing.
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Postby neo-dragon » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:18 pm

So far the general public, at least in the greater Toronto area, seems to be very much against changing the lyrics. A web poll on the local news has yielded results of 93% against changing. I've listened to a number of callers on radio programs and no one is supporting the change, neither men or women. The general feeling seems to be that tradition trumps politically correctness in this case. I think that the whole thing is going to blow over pretty soon.
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Postby Jayelle » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:47 pm


"God in man made manifest" makes perfect sense without changing it. The song is referring to Jesus who, by all accounts, was a man. That isn't referring to a collective "you," it's referring to a particular person, so the change -- besides being bad poetry -- doesn't really make much sense.
Yeah, the bad theology bugs me too.
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Postby Rei » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:36 am

(That said, when an ultra-PC graduate professor informed me that instead of saying, "seminal work," I ought to say, "germinal work," I was annoyed. But I think that had more to do with the fact that it was the first time I had met her, it was a casual setting, and I really dislike people who correct other people's speech publicly.)
My primary irritation with that is the word "seminal" comes from the Latin word for "seed" and is not essentially masculine. So not only is it petty, it's not even fully valid.
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Postby jotabe » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:01 am

Specially when seed and germ are completely different things, the germ is the plant embryo. So a germinal work is a work in its starting stages, not a work that will help others work flourish.

As for the song, i would initially be against the change, as it looks stupid. But knowing that 93% is against, that makes me reconsider my stance. :lol: Nothing with that level of agreement among population can be good.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:26 pm

The government trashed their plans for changing the lyrics. Works for me.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:45 pm

I don't think I've relayed this story yet on Pweb:

At soccer practice last week, my nephews were in line waiting to do a one-on-one and started pushing each other and calling each other "cracker." They didn't stop at one time, they repeatedly called each other cracker. Of course they were yelling it and of course there was a Caucasian family sitting close enough to hear.

I pulled them aside and asked why they were calling each other that and where in the world they heard it.

"Auntie, it's food."

I was relieved but tried to explain they shouldn't call each other that particular food because it isn't very nice and hurts some people's feelings.

I let them get back in line thinking they understood not to use it anymore and the first thing I heard was "Cracker! *giggle*"
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Postby neo-dragon » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:05 am

I think this is interesting:

Mixed-race couples increase 33%: Spouses earn more money, are better educated
“Here in Toronto, those who are pure-pure bred are becoming rare,” said Marcucci, 39. “I always believe at some point, as years and generations go by, we will all be so mixed and diluted that racism will not be so prevalent and strong. We all bleed red, don’t we"
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Postby Gravity Defier » Wed May 12, 2010 11:19 pm

http://www.racewire.org/archives/2010/0 ... o_law.html


I'm honestly a little baffled by this. In a perfect world, there'd be enough time and enough willingness for teachers to integrate black history and Latino history into regular American and World History classes, with no need to give them special treatment. The reality is, there is very little of Latino history (or none, in my high school experience); it is a huge percentage of the American population whose history is being ignored outside of telling them their ancestors were taken advantage of by Europeans and/or Americans who took over their land (as if that wouldn't cause resentment). If done properly, it doesn't have to be a tool to provoke resentment but rather a way of instilling pride or if that's too radical, it can simply be a case of giving them information...you know, teaching them.

This is awful timing on Brewer's part. Arizona, shame on you twice over.
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Postby Rei » Thu May 13, 2010 1:34 am

Wow...

That's kind of... remarkable. How is such a ban even legal? I mean, I can understand if they were trying to make a case that there wasn't enough time in the many years of school that people have to go to in order to cover non-Euro-centric American history. But to ban it "because such classes promote resentment and encourage students to want to “overthrow” the U.S. government. Such classes, the bill says, advocate ethnic solidarity instead of treating students as individual people"? If it's causing people to want to overthrow the US, then stop adding to the problem by trying to repress them further! It would make far more sense to teach people cold history and if it upsets some people in the class, show them how they can contribute to a better present day and a better future where they needn't worry about racism. Disallowing schools to teach people their history just proves right anyone who feels they're being repressed.
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Postby neo-dragon » Thu May 13, 2010 2:54 pm

Wow...
You took the word right out of my mouth. I wouldn't have believed that something like this could still happen in this day and age in the United States.
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Postby starlooker » Thu May 13, 2010 3:08 pm

I have not the words.

What the hell is wrong with Arizona these days?
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Postby Jayelle » Thu May 13, 2010 3:34 pm

I have not the words.

What the hell is wrong with Arizona these days?
Yeah, seriously! Alea, GET OUT!!! Get out while you can!
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Postby neo-dragon » Thu May 13, 2010 3:45 pm

Getting out may not be a problem. At this rate she'll be deported for not being "American" enough.
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Postby Jayelle » Thu May 13, 2010 4:07 pm

Oh! Maybe they'll deport her to Canada. :wink:
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Postby Gravity Defier » Fri May 14, 2010 3:48 pm

I think Canada would be pretty low on the list of countries I'd be deported to; Mexico and Iran would come first, if we go by looks alone.



This is an awful joke but I love it:

If I get pulled over in Arizona and the cop says "papers" and I say "scissors," do I win?


These two laws have stirred up a lot of conversation around the country about immigration and conversation = good, I tend to think. But I have to wonder how places like L.A. and groups such as the National Council of La Raza think boycotting the state is going to help matters; I'd hate to see jobs lost and watch matters go from bad to worse.
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Postby jotabe » Fri May 14, 2010 4:06 pm

It's just sad >.<

In any case, with the rampant ignorance that leads to laws like that, chances are they think Mexico and Spain are actually the same country, so they send you here instead... :o

Seriously.... :evil:
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Fri May 14, 2010 5:47 pm

I have to wonder how places like L.A. ... think boycotting the state is going to help matters; I'd hate to see jobs lost and watch matters go from bad to worse.
I wonder if they'll stop doing business with the Arizona energy suppliers and where they'll turn for their energy needs if and when Arizona retaliates.

I'm also waiting for Arizona businesses to file suit for violation of the privileges and immunities clause or dormant commerce clause. It's okay to promote your own state or locality's economic development by contracting only with local/state businesses. It's not okay to discriminate against businesses and commerce from one particular state.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:39 pm

WTF, Arizona?

WTF.

Edit to add: http://wonkette.com/415815/arizona-coun ... l-campaign Well, at least there's that.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:03 pm

WTF, Arizona?

WTF.

I don't know what to say. I'm not surprised and I consider that a sad thing, to not be surprised. But after first Arpaio, then Brewer in recent memory...Arizona politics, as usual. Mecham in the 80s, Brewer now.

I finally got around to taking a picture of the noose I have passed on the way to work for the past year. Maybe that's not race related, but even if it's not, I'm ashamed of it being up.

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Postby jotabe » Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:37 am

oh god... i guess it's quite educative for kids, though: "this is what happens to you if you are a criminal and not rich enough to pay for a good lawyer".

In any case, i can understand why you want to move out of there. When policies are stupid (and EL's post denotes brain-dead stupidity), smart people move out. At least before they start making people wear symbols on their clothes according to their blood status.
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Postby CezeN » Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:06 pm

The most annoying, what I percieved to be, racist moments in my life were as such:

1. Back in 8th grade/middle school I was in this gifted program that brought together kids from different districts and areas.
We used to go to school about an hour early, and get out an hour early too. In 8th grade, our new school, the hall to the buses also led to the gym/athletic lockerrooms.

I remember that one day, I was walking to the bus down the hall, and the tardy bell rang for the regular zoned kids to go to class. As soon as the bell rang, about 4 or so kids took off running for their athletic lockeroom, on the opposite side of the hall from me.
A random teacher immediately screamed after them and stopped them and made them come back so that she could write them up.
Coincidentally, all of those kids were black.

The teacher then saw me walking on the opposite side of the hall, and told me to stop. I calmly told her, "I'm in *insert gifted program* and kept walking."
"HEY STOP AND COME HERE," she yelled.

Being the good student I am, I walked back and repeated myself.

Her reply?

"I've heard that story before. Sorry, I've worked here long enough to be able to tell who's in _______ and who's not."

I was sort of in disbelief.

This teacher then proceeded to ignore me while I tried to convince her I was in the gifted program. So, I promptly flagged down a few other gifted students that were passing by, and they also confirmed I was one of them.
Her reply was to ignore the first group and then say "Don't cover for him, do you guys want to get in trouble?" to the second group.

Either way, being the nicest teacher she could possibly be, she decided to write my tardy pass up last - because since I obviously wasn't in the gifted program, it's not like I had a bus to catch or anything. :roll:

Finally, she finished and I rushed as fast as possible down the hall and out the door, only to be greeted by the sight of the bus driving down the road - long gone.
I mean, I'm surprised the bus was still in the area, I guess some of them got the busdriver to wait a while.
My parents were pretty furious, especially since we don't live in the school district or anything, we live far away.

Looking back, I should have just ran and ignored that bitch.
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2. Similarly, I had an encounter with a school truancy officer this year when I was leaving school with my friend because we didn't have any Dual Credit class that day, because apparently she thought we might have been skipping and - "What about you? I know you're not in Dual Credit" (Ummmm okay. I don't know you or why you'd think that and my school records clean)

Except this time I had my dual credit college card as proof :wink:

Of course, maybe neither of these incidents had anything to do with my race. *shrug*
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Anyone else have annoying racism moments that they're willing to share?
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Postby Gravity Defier » Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:47 pm

Anyone else have annoying racism moments that they're willing to share?
As opposed to the fun ones?

My high school was, arguably, the "best" for academics at the time (no longer the case; that honor goes to the private school built after I graduated) and I wasn't supposed to attend there, based on district boundaries. I was supposed to be at the predominantly low income, Hispanic school with the full-day daycare (for all the pregnant/new mothers who attended), located on the north side of town (farthest school from my house), which is also where the gang problem is least hidden in the city.

Now, there were Hispanic kids at my high school but I think it was the most even in terms of race. The only other high school at the time -not the one I went to and not the one I was supposed to go to- shipped in kids from the town that is split over the AZ-Mexico border, so they were also heavily populated by Hispanics.

Like a lot of places, in my high school, there were three levels of classes: below grade level, on grade level, Honors/AP.

There were very few Hispanics in Honors/AP. In fact, there were very few kids in Honors/AP, period; of the ~2,000 students, ~400 kids were. Everyone in Honors/AP took classes with pretty much the same kids throughout the day, and also throughout the 4 years.

Anyway, all that background/explanation to say, I was told time and again by some people that I should not be in those classes, I should not be at that school, and why couldn't I just go and die already? "Everyone knows Mexicans are stupid." One girl was worse than the others.

To make things even more pleasant, I was being told by the Hispanics I wasn't a "real" Latino. Got it from both sides. God, I f****** hated high school.




I also got hell for wearing a bandana to keep the hair off my face because it was assumed I was in a gang, when really I just wanted to keep my hair away from my eyebrow piercing. I don't know that this was racist; gangs are a problem around here, but I wasn't hanging it out of my back pocket, I didn't fit the well-known style of actual gang members with things like the colored belt hanging down. I wasn't sporting a Raiders jersey, no 13s, no spiderwebs, nada. It was just a blue paisley bandana folded like this but thinner.



I've had a lot of little things over the years that I've tried to forget about and mostly have. I get angry when they happen but I try to let them go because there's no point hanging on to them. People are stupid and that goes for all races.

My own dad has made awful comments about white people, including all the times he's told me never to date white men. He's so full of s*** sometimes and he used to be such a good man, makes me wonder what the hell happened to him.
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Postby CezeN » Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:42 pm

I slightly know what thats like - the getting it from both sides thing. Though, it was only like a couple specific people, not my peers in general. And only like half of Freshman year.

Though, my last two years of Middle School were my peers telling me that I was an "oreo" and didn't fit their stereotype of how black people should act. Oh, and just generally being a d!ck to me and trying to annoy me. Got called the n-word a couple of times, too. Why I pretty much kept to my own group of friends.

Also, similarly, I've pretty much usually been the only black person in my AP/pre-ap classes. Meh.

Either way, I usually heard joke racism like everyday with the friends I sat with at lunch, this year. I mean, this last month, they nicknamed me "Night Ape". They started this whole Freestyle Friday thing, for like a month, where they kept getting me to try to rap (and I eventually did) because that's an innate skill since I'm black. :roll:
Apparently everything I do is "because your black".
It's not really a problem - it's more fun racism :wink: because I know they're not serious and I joke back.
Or maybe it's because I've been so desensitized to racism?....

So yeah, except for not getting PHYSICALLY beat up, my middleschool life was pretty much like the show Everybody Hates Chris.
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Postby locke » Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:40 pm

Driving to Ventura with my white bread girlfriend in january we were passing through Oxnard, aka strawberry country. She started talking about the strawberry festival they have in early summer and how we should go to it. I asked if there were any U-Pick strawberry patches and she asked what those were. I explained and she looked at me like I was crazy, then said, why would you even want to do that.

Then she paused for a bit, and said, "can I say something really offensive?" I assented with a chuckle, and she said, "that's what all the mexicans are for."

My heart literally began pounding and I'm sure I gripped the steering wheel harder, I swallowed and said, "hmm. That is really offensive."

she then went on a diatribe about illegals and how we needed to strip the children of illegals born in america of their citizenship and send them back to mexico. We argued for most of the rest of the journey about this and I started to wonder when she would dump me. She wasn't mad that we were arguing, she was mad that I, or anyone, could disagree with her, because it was self evidently obvious that she was right, like she was always right. And that reminded me of the first time she got mad at me. We disagreed over the way to measure waist and hips for our weight loss goals. I googled it and said, okay, first representative agrees with me, lets look for counter example because a sample of 1 is no good. I clicked a second link and it also agreed with me and she looked at me in disgust. I was starting to get confused. So I clicked a third link and she left the room and said I was playing a "let's prove amanda is wrong," game and she didn't like it. Evidently, I was supposed to do it her way, and in the event of a disagreement, assume she was right.

Ugh. Can we just say that men are stupid and it's obvious she and I should never have gotten involved in a relationship. :-p
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby locke » Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:04 pm

I actually came here to post this link, and forgot about it, reading the recent replies.

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/2009/ ... -you-back/
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby neo-dragon » Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:24 pm

That seems to be at odds with the article I linked to further up on the page about mixed-marriages in Toronto, but of course Toronto is one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world.
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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:16 pm

A question for those who have more first hand experience than I do in this area:

I've been thinking about moving to Austin, TX recently, and being black, I thought it would be worth asking about race-relations in that area and Texas in general. I'm from Jersey and have lived here all my life, except college. I was in North Carolina there, but I was inside the Research Triangle, which is largely populated by those who migrated to the state and being a college campus in general, attitudes about race and racism were generally more progressive than the country at large.

My parents tells stories about times they and their friends have been on the Gulf Coast states, and problems of race they ran into - everything ranging from streets and areas of town black people weren't generally "allowed" to socialize in, to outright being run out of town. At this is at least 20-30 years out of date, though.

Does Texas, and Austin in particular which I understand has seen lots of immigration from around the country as it's been promoted as a cultural center, live down to it's stereotype - bars where I'd be given a silent 3 count to leave, if that; or is it simply not as bad as all that?
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Postby human. » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:07 pm

Austin is known for being one of the most liberal areas of Texas. I don't live there, but my brother went to college there and I live a couple hours north of it. While it's still Texas, I think you're not likely to see much open racism as compared to other areas of the state. I've really only been around downtown and the university, but I can't see you having big problems with racism there.

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Postby Gravity Defier » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:37 pm

Arizona won Bill Maher's Stupidest State award.

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Felt like a fitting thread to put this in.
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Postby jotabe » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:24 am

I read in a spanish paper that illegal and legal immigrants are starting to leave Arizona, which is beginning to hit Arizonan economy. Would prove that stupid policies come with a cost.
I just hope voters will learn from it not to be stupid.
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Postby locke » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:11 am

Also the Arizona legislature is trying to pass a new law that prevents anyone born in Arizona from receiving a birth certificate if their parents cannot prove their legal status.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:02 pm

Is there a reason South Carolina wasn't on Maher's bracket? Other than that it would have made the outcome a foregone conclusion?
"But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is."
-Alan Watts

jotabe
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Postby jotabe » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:41 am

There are also cases where the idiocy and racism are in the side of the minority. Yeah, minorities being racist against themselves :shock:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas ... black-hole
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