The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Luet » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:29 pm

I've never seen a Chik-Fil-A in my life.
Ditto.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:53 pm

I've been there once, in college and thought they were bland with the exception of their delicious fries, and have never gone back.

Recent events have just guaranteed I never will. I saw a sign and wasn't sure if it was one McDonald's or all McDonald's saying they support Chick-fil-A but either way, while I don't go there often, I'm tempted to keep my money from them, too...which won't make any difference whatsoever but it's the only way to really speak out these days; you put your money where your mouth is.

I have no problem with people speaking out for or against something -people can say they're for or against gay anything- but they can't be offended or surprised when some people disagree and don't want to support their ventures because of it. It has nothing to do with my supporting or not supporting Christian values; I wouldn't support a known KKK member running a restaurant, national chain or not, and don't see how this is different. :shrug:
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby neo-dragon » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:21 pm

I know that it's not quite the same thing, but don't most of us here still support OSC even though he is vocally opposed to same sex marriages?
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:32 pm

This is an honest question that I don't know the answer to: does OSC donate millions of dollars to organizations that, in addition to opposing gay marriage, also favor criminalization of homosexuality, oppose gay adoption, and advocate for disallowing homosexuality as a protected class under discrimination lawsuits?

If he does, I'll be more than happy to donate my OSC books to the nearest Chick-fil-A to use as a heat stimulant for frying chicken.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby elfprince13 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:35 pm

I know that it's not quite the same thing, but don't most of us here still support OSC even though he is vocally opposed to same sex marriages?
I think it's actually much the same thing, and much the same situation. I'd like to think most people can understand there's a difference between opposition to a legal definition of gay marriage and hating, fearing, or viewing as less-than-human, people of other sexual orientations or value systems. Orson Scott Card's treatment of gay characters in Songmaster earned him heavy criticism in the church for being too "pro-gay" when it was written. His views haven't changed since then, but the tone of the conversation has shifted, and people have forgotten how to parse "I value you and empathize with you as a human being, but can't support these societal changes".


Gravity Defier: I'm pretty sure he would oppose adoption by a homosexual couple, though I haven't heard him speak (or write) on it specifically. The rest seem pretty out of character based on what I've read of his views on the subject. The (only) thing he preaches on without fail, in essentially all of his written works of any significant length, is the importance of the traditional family unit as the building block of society.


(Disclaimer: I don't think the government should define marriage in any legal sense at all, so don't take this as me endorsing the position of OSC or Chik-Fil-A)
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:41 pm

The folks of Chick-fil-A have donated money to support the things I asked about OSC doing. I don't see how they're simply saying they don't agree with it; seems like they've ventured to the hating it side to me.

But, from other threads on the board, I know when to stop talking so I'll bow out now. I simply meant to say I have my reasons for thinking they are bigots.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby elfprince13 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:12 pm

Disclaimer: please do not mistake things I am saying for the purpose of explaining a particular set of beliefs, as me saying that I believe them
The folks of Chick-fil-A have donated money to support the things I asked about OSC doing. I don't see how they're simply saying they don't agree with it; seems like they've ventured to the hating it side to me.
I was unaware that they supported those things, thank you for sharing.

Two of those three things certainly seem "anti-gay" to me, rather than merely "pro-traditional-family-structure".


I would like to venture an explanation though, as to how some people who hold those views may hold them without being "gay haters". I'm not denying that many gay-haters would also hold them, or denying that if enacted as law they would be severely and legitimately emotionally distressing to someone who was gay, or endorsing these views at all, but I think it's important to understand the nuances of what people believe, rather than lumping groups of people who believe differently than you into a single category based on surface similarities.

In the case of criminalizing homosexuality, I think you could see how someone who, for example, thought that hard drugs should be illegal, and that people with drug addictions should receive therapy, for the protection of society and the health of the individual drug user, without hating the drug user. In fact, I know many people who would extend extra care and hospitality to a down-and-out addict in order to help them, without believing that the addict had any right to use the drugs and without having any empathy for addiction itself. Arguments of this nature are in fact frequently employed by anti-gay activists, and many abuses have resulted in the past from the treatment of homosexuality as a mental sickness - but this is certainly a distinct problem from hate.

As far as the discrimination law goes, there are people who believe that anti-discrimination laws should only be applied in the public sector and in the courts, and that private property owners should be free to be discriminatory in how they distribute or use that property. Obviously in this case it should be relatively easy to distinguish the property-rights political theorists from actual bigots (i.e., do they believe ALL discrimination laws should be repealed, or just for homosexuality?), but it is not uncommon to use that argument in reverse to target people who are merely defending property-rights and label them as bigots, which is why I am wary of jumping to conclusions on that issue.
But, from other threads on the board, I know when to stop talking so I'll bow out now. I simply meant to say I have my reasons for thinking they are bigots.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby starlooker » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:28 pm

Chik-Fil-A has THE BEST fast-food chicken nuggets. Oh, man, I love that meal. With awesome lemonade.

The thing is, I support the boycott but I kind of wish everyone on Facebook would stop talking about it. I'm having terribly fierce cravings for it, now.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Jayelle » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:30 pm

I've never seen a Chik-Fil-A in my life.
I don't think I knew what one was till this week.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby neo-dragon » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:41 pm

Me neither, Jan.

I take it they don't exist north of the border, but you'd figure that we'd at least hear of them. :shrug:
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby starlooker » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:51 pm

They're a Southern chain. They just made it to Wichita this year. I was so happy.

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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby CezeN » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:03 pm

Hmm I was wondering if there'd be some talk about this on Pweb.

I didn't realize that Chic-fil-A was only a regional, southern franchise. It's surprising to hear about people who haven't heard about it... when I ate it almost every day my last school year. Lol.

I'm not entirely sure if I'm gonna boycott it. I think it's kinda sad that I realize the franchise pays millions to support anti-gay groups, but find the food too delicious to stop eating it. Sigh.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Mich » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:06 pm

I mostly hate them because of the name. Have I talked about this before? Because I can talk about this forever.

I had never even seen one before visiting my brother in Texas, but I had seen the name mentioned before. "Chik-Fil-A". You know how I pronounced it in my head? "Chick-Fill-Uh". Because that's how hyphens work in the English language, at least to my knowledge. You pronounce things in them phonetically, and a stranded A gets pronounced "uh" in my dialect.

So I refused to pronounce it as a hard "Ay." Every time I do it feels like a tiny, elitist victory.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby elfprince13 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:17 pm

I mostly hate them because of the name. Have I talked about this before? Because I can talk about this forever.

I had never even seen one before visiting my brother in Texas, but I had seen the name mentioned before. "Chik-Fil-A". You know how I pronounced it in my head? "Chick-Fill-Uh". Because that's how hyphens work in the English language, at least to my knowledge. You pronounce things in them phonetically, and a stranded A gets pronounced "uh" in my dialect.

So I refused to pronounce it as a hard "Ay." Every time I do it feels like a tiny, elitist victory.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Dr. Mobius » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:25 am

I don't think I knew what one was till this week.
*cough*
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Jayelle » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:08 pm

I don't think I knew what one was till this week.
*cough*
I'm pretty sure I was just looking at the cow costumes. :stoned:
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:48 pm

And thinking, "Those silly S's, always walking around town dressed as cows."

:P

(Can we make that happen? Can your family walk around all the time dressed up as various things?)
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Jayelle » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:11 pm

Ginny does frequently goes out as a dragon or with a superman cape...
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:49 pm

May she never lose this behavior. I'm pretty much convinced we'd have fewer wars if we all dressed up in silly costumes on more days than just Halloween.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby steph » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:13 pm

And thinking, "Those silly S's, always walking around town dressed as cows."

:P

(Can we make that happen? Can your family walk around all the time dressed up as various things?)
I'm sure that could be arranged. Halloween is our favorite Holiday. And we find any other time during the year that we can to dress up: TLAPD, Renaissance Festival, murder mystery parties, random other days for fun. Extending it to 365 day/year would not be a stretch for us. ;)
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby eggbalancer » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:05 am

Yes, yes, I am ok with this plan. I have a decent collection of random costumes, including a powder blue tuxedo, a bright yellow rain suit with an umbrella hat, a referee jersey, a wizard costume, a three-piece corduroy suit, red and blue valet jackets, and a full custom pirate costume, to name a few. I would like to add an Elvis costume, a zoot suit and a nice lab coat to my repertoire. I would love to have a whole room in our home dedicated to theme parties, including our luau decorations (which take 4 boxes to store), out pirate decorations (which are even more extensive), plus Halloween, mafia, medieval, 70s, and maybe half a dozen other themes. Call me eccentric. I think it's fun. Frankly, I quit caring what other people thought of me a long time ago. Normal is boring. I have no problem being me. I just think it's fun to be somebody else. And often! (btw, my kilt gets here next month! Yay!)

Did I mention I try to develop accents or voices to go with each costume? Yeah, I'm weird.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:19 am

Yeah, I'mweird awesome.
Yes, yes you are. As is your family. I honestly love the costuming. :)
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Dr. Mobius » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:28 am

Frankly, I quit caring what other people thought of me a long time ago. Normal is boring. I have no problem being me.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby locke » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:34 pm

This is an honest question that I don't know the answer to: does OSC donate millions of dollars to organizations that, in addition to opposing gay marriage, also favor criminalization of homosexuality, oppose gay adoption, and advocate for disallowing homosexuality as a protected class under discrimination lawsuits?

If he does, I'll be more than happy to donate my OSC books to the nearest Chick-fil-A to use as a heat stimulant for frying chicken.
Not millions. He won't have millions until after next year. And no one really knows what he does with his money, so...

But, iirc, he's on the board for National Organization for Marriage (or something like that) one of those evil groups promoting all sorts of vileness.

He also wrote that Californians should overthrow their government by violent force after the state judiciary ruled in favor of marriage equality. He may have donated to Prop 8 campaigns but he definitely tithes to the Mormon church and the church spent millions and millions in their Prop 8 campaigns of hate in this state. so...

His views have become increasingly strident and vile in the past decade on this matter, most recently, he blatently lied in his columns about the North Carolina Amendment 1, which, naturally he supported.

*edit: I toned down some of my language in this post quite a few times. Sorry if anyone saw something that upset them, this is a hot button trigger issue for me.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Dr. Mobius » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:12 pm

The Mormon thing amuses me. You'd think an organization historically known for polygamy and its struggles against the rest of the country because of it would be a little more tolerant of other alternative lifestyles. But this is the wrong thread for my rant on religions and blind spots so I'll leave it at that.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby CezeN » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:09 pm

This is kind of random, but I was hanging out with a family friend the other day. He was telling me about this program he did in DC - Institute for Responsible Citizenship - and the internship and networking events.

He said that he was at this job networking thing, and it was mostly African immigrants. And him, being American Black, was slightly out of place because the cultural difference. He also said that at times, they would say things that indicated they looked down on American Blacks and stereotyped them basically.

I gotta admit that honestly, as a Nigerian(born in America, but raised in the culture), I do basically look down on African Americans. I see them as basically out of touch with their ethnic roots and I've always kinda felt like they didn't have the level of work ethic as us first generation Africans or just immgrated over Africans. Part of it may be my parents saying such things and my upbringing, because I entirely realize that a great deal of African Americans are in the environments and acting the way they are because of their families experience in the U.S. As opposed to us Africans who come hopeful to the land of opportunity with the new beginning mindset that we're gonna take advantage of all the opportunities.

Then again, I basically feel the same way about a lot of ethnic groups, except I feel that a lot of the asians or indians(brown) that I know are more in touch with their heritage. Same with hispanics. But, any that isn't, I shake my head at slightly. Except I'm largely ambivalent when it comes to whites being in touch with their roots(I pretty much stereotype them as not being in touch, unless they are obviously Russian or obviously Irish, ect.) - except for admiring the European exchange students and such that I've seen at my university....But that might just be because of their accents.

Then again, Nigerians are largely elitist and cliquey when it comes to even African countries. I don't know why we feel like Nigerians are the top crop, but we do slightly.(I say slightly because I'm always half joking when I say that type of thing to my Somalian friend). If I meet someone and they're Nigerian, I'm more likely to try to maintain the friendship. I'm more likely to start a conversation with a random person if they are Nigerian, on the basis and icebreaker of "You must be Nigerian" both of us being Nigerian. We have naija-dars; this medical student I was introduced to at my university library said that when he saw me, he knew I was Nigerian.

That's the group I identify with. Not with just plain blacks/African Americans. When my good friends make black jokes, I laugh and tell them they should be making jokes about Fufu instead of chicken/watermelon/whatever stereotype they brought up for the joke.
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I wonder if other people feel the same way about other ethnic groups related to them.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby neo-dragon » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:34 pm

I think that a lot of groups tend to have this sort of rivalry, I guess you could call it, with closely related groups. I have Chinese friends who talk about this kind of thing with mainland Chinese versus Hong Kong natives, or Cantonese speakers vs Mandarin. I also know Europeans, in particular an Italian lady I've worked with, who talk about some Italians looking down on some other Italians from a different part of the country, as well as other Europeans. My family is from Barbados and my parents often make comments about the general lawlessness of Jamaicans, even though some of their best friends are Jamaican.

In each of these examples the groups are ethnically the same and probably indistinguishable to outsiders, and yet still...

I guess that's why all racism would probably look really stupid and pointless to some non-human intelligence that just sees us all as human.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby The Third » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:44 pm

I guess that's why all racism would probably look really stupid and pointless to some non-human intelligence that just sees us all as human.
Wouldn't that just be perpetuating a macrocosm of racism? A non-human intelligence thinking, "Oh those humans and their racist ways...they're all the same...silly and stupid."

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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Jayelle » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:40 pm

I gotta admit that honestly, as a Nigerian(born in America, but raised in the culture), I do basically look down on African Americans. I see them as basically out of touch with their ethnic roots
I've never really understood this mentality. At what point does someone become American/Canadian/whatever-country-their-ancestors-came-to? I'm sixth generation Canadian on almost all sides of my family. Am I still supposed to be in touch with my roots in Ireland and the UK? Isn't it just faking it at some point?
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby neo-dragon » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:14 pm

I think there's a double standard. If you're white, you get to be just Canadian/American. If you're more "ethnic" you're considered an "oreo" or "white-washed" or whatever term applies to your particular denomination if you don't show signs of your roots. :shrug:
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Jayelle » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:30 pm

Okay, the other thing is... of COURSE they are "out of touch" with their roots! African-Americans came to America enslaved! I'm sure many of them have absolutely no way of knowing what part of Africa they "come from" (not to mention- hello?-family trees come from multiple places). If suddenly a person whose ancestors came over on slave ships started adopting Nigerian food/customs/etc, wouldn't they be a huge poser?
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby CezeN » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:37 pm

I gotta admit that honestly, as a Nigerian(born in America, but raised in the culture), I do basically look down on African Americans. I see them as basically out of touch with their ethnic roots
I've never really understood this mentality. At what point does someone become American/Canadian/whatever-country-their-ancestors-came-to? I'm sixth generation Canadian on almost all sides of my family. Am I still supposed to be in touch with my roots in Ireland and the UK? Isn't it just faking it at some point?
It has to do with the culture that you participate in. I'm first generation Nigerian born in the United States. Considering that both my parents were born in Nigeria, they raised me in the culture. Occasionally drop stories about, "See, in River State(Nigeria) we'd blablabla". Raised me on Nigerian food. They used to go to Nigerian parties and we've gone to Nigerian conventions.

On the other hand, I'm part of the American culture, too. American friends, American shows, American society.

So I'm American, but in touch with my roots. You're Canadian, since you and your parents have grown up in Canadian Society. Whether or not you're in touch with your UK or Irish roots has to do with how acquainted and influenced you are by those cultures. Do you eat/love Irish/UK dishes about as much as you do Canadian ones? Stuff like that.

But no, the question is not whether you're supposed to be. The question is whether you are or not. I guess I put some uncertainty in my statement, but let me be clear: blacks permeated by African American culture are out of touch with African culture i.e. with their ethnic roots. They shouldn't suddenly adopt it or anything. But, like admitted, I basically look down on them for it. Regardless.
I think there's a double standard. If you're white, you get to be just Canadian/American. If you're more "ethnic" you're considered an "oreo" or "white-washed" or whatever term applies to your particular denomination if you don't show signs of your roots. :shrug:
I don't think that's true, actually.(EDIT: Maybe it is for other people)

"Except I'm largely ambivalent when it comes to whites being in touch with their roots(I pretty much stereotype them as not being in touch, unless they are obviously Russian or obviously Irish, ect.)"

Regardless of what I stereotype, whites can be in touch with their roots. Not like I can tell usually, so it doesn't really affect my perception of them and they're not directly related to my ethnic group like African Americans are. And yes, I think of my Irish friend as Irish. Probably because he acts how people stereotype the Irish, name is European, and once posted something about waking up to an Irish Breakfast with his family.

I also disagree with the idea that being "white-washed" or an "oreo" means you're not showing signs of your roots. Well, specifically with African American culture, it means.... you're not showing signs of African-American culture. Which aren't the roots(to the degree that I mean). I think that a lot of us Africans are considered such because we sometimes act different from our African American brethren--such as speaking proper English instead of Ebonics. I actually remember this black Canadian in 9th grade saying that I acted white as if it was a negative, and then later on saying something about how its okay because I'm African and just trying to make it in this country. Something like that.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby Dr. Mobius » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:32 pm

I can trace my roots back to both sides of the Civil War and one line at least as far back as the War of 1812. I'm about as American as you can get without crossing a prehistoric land bridge.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby neo-dragon » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:46 pm


I also disagree with the idea that being "white-washed" or an "oreo" means you're not showing signs of your roots. Well, specifically with African American culture, it means.... you're not showing signs of African-American culture. Which aren't the roots(to the degree that I mean). I think that a lot of us Africans are considered such because we sometimes act different from our African American brethren--such as speaking proper English instead of Ebonics. I actually remember this black Canadian in 9th grade saying that I acted white as if it was a negative, and then later on saying something about how its okay because I'm African and just trying to make it in this country. Something like that.
Yeah, I see what you're saying. I guess we're somewhat unique in that respect. I live in a very diverse area and when I hear the term "white-washed" referring to a Chinese person it means they don't act like someone from China, or for an Indian person it means they don't act like they're from India. But you're right, when referring to a black person it has nothing to do with how African they are. It's about if they're acting like a "brotha", or a "homie", or a "gangsta", or a "nigga"; which ever term you prefer. It probably has to do with the fact that many of us didn't come here straight from Africa, and as Jan mentioned, many that did were brought over as slaves and deliberately conditioned to forget their culture and not pass it on. I can't even tell you how many generations removed I am from being African, let alone what part(s) of Africa my ancestors came from. And like many African-Canadians/Americans of similar Africa --> Caribbean --> North American heritage, I have white ancestors on both sides of my family. The bottom line is that for many if not most blacks in North America the term "Caribbean-American/Canadian" is a far more accurate description of our heritage than African, and for those that went African --> Slave-American, they had to create a whole new culture for themselves in a society where as recently as two generations ago they barely had any rights. So it's not surprising that only those who came here directly from Africa since the civil rights movement actually act African.
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Re: The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

Postby steph » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:04 pm

I can trace my roots back to both sides of the Civil War and one line at least as far back as the War of 1812. I'm about as American as you can get without crossing a prehistoric land bridge.
I'm with you, Josh. I'm about as American as the come.

On my Maternal Grandmother's side, my ancestors seem to have mostly immigrated in the mid-1800's from Denmark and England, although the lines are traced back to the early 1700's and further in the native countries.

On Maternal Grandfather's side, my immigrating ancestor was John Howland of the Mayflower in 1620. Since he has so many famous descendants, the line is traced far back from there, but I don't want to click through all the arrows to find out how far right now.

My paternal lines immigrated from mostly England in the early or mid-1800's.

Yup. I'm American.
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